59. Called Back to Who You Are with Whitney Lowe

Today's dialogue session blessed me in more ways than one! I'm joined by Whitney Lowe to discuss her new book, "Called Back to Who You Are: Finding Yourself in the Wild, Pursuing Love of God". But we also get into who to "balance" launch seasons with little kids, we talk about identity, calling, rest, and so. much more. Plus, I (Dusty Hegge) share my juicy story about a potential oppertunity to become a published author myself! 

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Personal Background
02:09 Balancing Work and Family Life
04:45 Creative Solutions for Childcare
07:40 The Hustle Culture and Its Implications
10:46 Finding Balance Between Work and Rest
13:37 Navigating Public Discourse and Personal Beliefs
17:37 The Beauty of Thoughtful Conviction
18:35 Navigating Faith and Doubt
20:20 Embracing Unique Voices in Faith
20:35 The Journey to Authorship
23:52 Finding Purpose Amidst Personal Struggles
28:22 Understanding God's Pursuit
36:05 The Nature of God's Love and Persistence
40:48 Finding Joy in Unexpected Places
42:21 The Journey to Faith and Understanding God's Glory
43:08 The Nature of God's Glory and Our Purpose
47:08 Theological Foundations of God's Pursuit of Us
50:50 Embracing the Unexpected in Life and Work
54:02 Finding Joy Amidst the Challenges of Motherhood

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Oh, hi. Hey, hello there. My name is Dusty Heggy, and this is Voice Memos from Dusty, an off-the-cuff podcast where business development and biblical discipleship meet in real time. So we chat faith and life. We talk about theology. I get to bring guests on every now and again for what I like to call dialogue sessions. And that's what I have for you today. I'm joined by Whitney Lowe, and we talk about a whole lot of things, but kind of the cornerstone of our conversation, sort of anchor point, if you will, is all about her incredible new book called Called Back to Who You Are Finding Yourself in the Wild, Pursuing Love of God. And you guys, I I've been really blessed to either work with as clients, like to bring them on as my client, or like get to interview and talk with a variety of authors. And it's always such a privilege, but I I can't like stress enough just how special and energizing this particular conversation with Whitney really was. I really, really admire her willingness to step into the nuance, even though that's messy and uncomfortable. I really, really admire just her sense of humor and how candid she is. She's just such a joy and a delight to talk to. And I cannot wait to share this conversation with you. Before we dive on in, and we're about to, because I'm gonna keep this intro snappy, which is really unlike me. I know you know that. But it's just to ask that you would leave a rating or a five-star review. So on Apple Podcasts, you can leave like a review or whatever with words. On Spotify, you can only click the stars to leave like a five-star rating. Um, it would mean the whole wide world to me. We're on episode, I think what, 59, if I'm correct. And I have not done a very good job of asking you for your guys' help. But those ratings and reviews are really gonna help get this podcast out into other men and women's podcast feeds to have more conversations like this. So, like, so if you could just take a second to pretty pretty please leave a rating or a review, I would be very, very, very, very, very grateful. Okay, no more chit-chat. Let's dive right on in to my incredible conversation with Whitney Lowe. Before I record with the guests, I like to just ask on the front end like, is there any topics like that you don't want to talk on? Like, I'll just trust your redirect if something gets there, but is there anything that comes to mind that you don't want to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

No, not really. Yeah. Thanks for asking. But yeah, yeah, I always kind of an open book.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Good. Okay. Okay. I mean, either is fine, but yeah. And I feel like too, when you've done enough interviews, you know how to redirect a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah, I guess that's true. Um I should be a professional podcast interviewee at this point. I just this is like how the book thing works. This time hasn't been as crazy. I feel like with the devotional, I had like literally like 30 or 40. And I just was kind of like, oh my gosh, this is yeah. I mean, it's actually really fun. I don't mind it. It's just like working it in with little kids. I feel like is the scheduling is the hard part. How old are your kids?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Almost 10 days away and nine and four.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Whoa, ten and nine. That's oh wait, no, sorry. Yeah, I started thinking about it and I was like, wait, two and nine? What? Um, okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Ten and eight and four. So because they're like a little less than a year and a half apart, I listen.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Okay. That's still that's no joke. Um, yes, my oldest is five, my middle is three, and my baby is eight months. So little yeah, like you had like an infant. Yeah, uh-huh. I had him in June, and it's been quite a time, but he's an angel. The third one is like a trap. It's I heard that, everyone told me that. So true. He is just like the easiest little guy, but it's still like just the logistics of having a baby, and like none of my kids take bottles, and so it's a lot of like, how am I gonna make sure we're napping and eating? And then like yesterday at this shoot, I had to like just bring him and he just kind of hung out. Like, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah, yeah. And I feel too like when I work with clients a lot that have are like writing books or building businesses and have little ones, it's not even just the rescheduling and trying to squeeze it in. It's the like trying to get your brain to transition from one thing to the next thing. Like there's not any amount of like it's really hard to come by like deep work.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah, I don't know what that is. I mean I used to know what that is. Anymore, I'm kind of like, Does it seem like deep work? Because that's really the best we can do. But you work with Tabitza, right? Am I thinking of that correctly? Okay, I love that I did.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

I adore her. She's such a sweetheart. Yeah. Yeah. This is the first year that I've had all like my youngest is in like a part-time kindergarten. And so I have like a regular schedule, unless we all get sick and we're down for a month. But you know what I mean, like more or less. And it's blowing my mind. I'm like, how did I get so much done when I like for the last eight years? How did I do that?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

I know. It's funny how then you're just like, oh my gosh, I well, because I used to have a full-time day job, and then I wrote the first I wrote actually both of these books before that ended. So that you know what I mean? It's like, oh, we wrote two books and also had two kids and uh had a full-time job, and I don't know logistically how that happened, but like obviously it did. Right. But how? Like, I actually don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Well, actually, can we talk about that? Like, I'm sure there's some things that you did to be intentional, just knowing a little bit of a lot of people. Yes so like, like, because a lot of people, a lot of my clients and a lot of my listeners are in a really similar phase where they're like wanting to pursue something, they're they feel a specifically like an assignment from the Lord, or they're like, even if it's just like from a place of like excitement and they want to create something beautiful, like I don't know, you're in the literal thick of it right now. What would you say to that person?

SPEAKER_00 5:57

It it it dooby thick. Um, I sorry, do we need it? Should we start? Are we good? Are we like done?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

We'll go. I'll do like a fancy intro, maybe later.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Okay, cool. Just I never know. Sometimes people have like their little routines. You can edit out the part of me saying it do be thick.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

What why? It's perfect. My most of the way back and all of the way.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

We're not really polished here. A very weird little interdiction for me, but that's also authentic. Because yeah, and that's kind of where my if you can't tell, we've been like navigating so much chaos. I'm well, I remember in college, I had this friend and he was kind of a quirky guy, and I came up to him at like 4 a.m. studying for finals, and he was like, It's no pants o'clock. And I think what he meant was we're done, like we're crazy, we're loopy, everything's out the window. Who cares? Yeah, but that expression has stuck with me, and that is how I feel about my life right now, is it's just like no pants o'clock always. Um, so he did have pants on, also. I feel I should clarify that he was wearing pants. Yeah, that's and I'm wearing pants right now. Anyway, to answer your question, I don't know. So I think I think the Lord did provide some helpful reprieve throughout all of this. So, like when we first started out, when I first started working on my first book and I was working full-time, um, we had just moved from California and we lived at my parents' house for what we thought would just be a few months, but with the housing market and also my my husband's job was kind of trying to figure out where they were gonna plant a church campus. And so for that reason, we like couldn't buy a house because we're like, well, we can't buy the house until you guys know where the church is being planted, and we can't buy you like the and the market was bad. And so we were there for like a year. And while that was hard, for some reasons, it also meant that I always had like a backup adult in the house if I needed to go work on something, or if I needed to go to a coffee shop to write a little bit of that book. And so I didn't have to pay for childcare because I could really like leverage nap time super effectively. And that was very helpful. Um one second, sorry. So that was, I think, a big part of it. The other thing that happened for finishing the second book manuscript is that we had a family friend who was just graduated from college and she had actually moved to our area and needed a place to stay while she did an internship. And so she lived in our spare bedroom. And again, same thing. It was like, okay, first of all, there's someone here if I have to go get something done. And at this point, I had two kids, which is like a whole other human full of variables. So if I needed to go get something done, that could work. But what we had said was you can live here for free if you can give us 10 hours of childcare a week. And so for my job and for getting stuff done, that was like huge. And I know that's like really intense, probably not doable for a lot of people. We live in a smaller home and we have our kids sharing a room specifically so that we can have this extra space for that reason and others. But I think people who like have an extra bedroom and are really struggling with childcare, I am kind of like there are a lot of churches that do like internships that are not fully paid. And if you have someone that you trust who can kind of step into that, I think that that is something not enough women in this current situation. Cause I know there are a lot of women who are trying to work from home, who have kids, but who are also up against a childcare market that's like absolutely insane and not fair. Um, and I think getting creative in those ways is like something not enough people are doing because it benefits those people who are trying to like be in ministry and can't afford housing. And it benefits those of us who have the housing part, but we can't afford childcare. And that was like such a huge win for she lived with us for a year. And that got me through my first book launch and it got me through my first manuscript.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

That's so cool. That's really cool. I I'm constantly telling, like, saying, like, if it's God's will, like He'll make the time for it. He'll flip the bell, like God will always make time for His will. And also, like, we have to be intentional and faithfully obedient. And I feel like that's such a great example of like God gave you an opportunity and you guys leapt on it. And like it's cool to see how it comes through. Like, because I'm in a similar situation where I have been very blessed with a mother-in-law who loves my kids so much and has the ability to be with them a lot.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

So totally my husband is in a high demanding job that we don't tend to share about publicly, but um he since he started when my second was born, my mother-in-law has been able to have the kids every Friday. So for like the last what, eight years, she's eight. And it's been such a blessing. Like I see that that's a gift, but there's always some way to get creative more often than not.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

But yeah, I think I think it is true that God also kind of in your unique situation illuminates what those points of creativity are or those little ways that it can work. And honestly, there have also been seasons, like I've been finishing a manuscript in this last few months. It's kind of a unique project. But in doing that, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have anybody living here that can help me with my kids. So it was also just the grace of writing late at night. Like I was not really one who likes to use that. That's not my best writing time typically, but also like the Lord is gracious in those moments too and gives you energy for those seasons that need to be that way. I think usually they're short, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

But yeah, it's not like a it's not sustainable for the long haul, but for that's another thing that touches on something that I feel real passionate about is there's this, and for good reason, a lot of like really push against a hustle culture, which I'm all for. Let's not work ourselves to the bone, let's have a healthy mindset about that. And also, I don't think hustle in and of itself is inherently evil. Like I think sometimes there are seasons where that's what it is. I always think about it like from the perspective of sports in high school, which I'm no near as cool as I was in high school. But I wrestled in high school and I loved it. Amazing. Thank you. I'm very proud of it. It was so much fun. But like hustle is a word that they're gonna say in all sports. Like your coaches are gonna show and it doesn't mean like flail around like a crazy person. It means like focus, get the work done, and push harder. Um and it's not something you're doing for your whole life, it's just something you're doing for the reason. And that's totally sounds like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Well, and I actually I I was kind of thinking about this in the last few years because um I went on this trip. I don't I've talked about it online before, but it's with this organization called Women of Welcome, and they go to the border and they like it's basically I think the idea is to just kind of help women see what we're talking about. Like this is especially when it comes to immigration and all that stuff, it's like people just don't know all that we know about it is what we've been told by someone else. Right. And there's conflicting sources, and so that can be really disorienting and confusing. And so the goal of this organization, and I went in 2022, like before this was the thing that it is now, but was just to kind of like, okay, we're gonna go talk to pastors who are on both sides of the border, we're gonna go talk to people who run ministries, we're gonna meet with a border patrol agent. Like it was so interesting. That's all kind of besides the point. But the women who are on the trip, I just remember being like, all of you guys run ministries or are like in ministry.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

I mean, I guess that's the same thing. Or like they're pastors, and then they also run a ministry, and then they also have a career, and then they also have kids, and then almost all of them were also foster parents or adoptive parents. And I was just like, How? Like, what are what are y'all on that I like and can I have some? Like, how are you guys handling where are you getting all this capacity? And I just remember one of the women um who does a lot of work with Lifeway, but she was just like, because it is not about protecting your energy and it's not about having superhuman amounts of energy, it's about expecting to be wrung out every day and then to be like expecting to be filled up. But it's like, I think the hustle culture misses it because the hustle culture makes us think that it's dependent on us and how hard we can work and how late we can stay up and how creative we can be. And then on the flip side, you know, you don't want to be burnt out by just, or you don't want to be like protecting your energy so much that you never do anything important. But there is kind of this middle way, as there often is with Christianity and with following Jesus, which is no, it's both. Like you are totally wrung out. Like when you go to bed, the goal is you left it all out there and you gave it everything that the Lord gave you. But that you also acknowledge that there's a pattern of rest every day. When you go to bed, you're getting that rest and you're making space for the Lord to fill you back up, physically, emotionally, spiritually, but also you've got that Sabbath rhythm weekly, where it's like, and there's supposed to be a full day dedicated to not hustling, not working, but you should expect to be poured out. And I think our culture, I think, might be between those two correctives a little bit. Like Sabbath and rest was such a big thing, like 10 years ago. It was like everyone needs to rest, rest, rest, rest, rest. And I think we swung a little too far that way, to your point.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

It's like a penny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah. And now I feel like we're kind of on our way back to that, like, oh no, we're supposed to be working hard and doing the good things. Absolutely. But we can't, you know, you have to keep on just like remedying whatever extreme.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. My husband and I worked at like the way we met was at a Bible camp uh called Black Like Bible Camp, and it's really close to us, and we love it. It feels very much like a second home for me. And I started when I was 15 as like an LAT. It's like the leader in training. If you do like a year as like volunteering, you are in all of the places. And then I we I ended up working there for I don't even know, eight to 10 years, somewhere in that range for a long time as a summer staff, and then I was an intern full-time, and then I worked as uh marketing director and like kind of went up through the ministry, and I and and I love it. But in my first year in particular, and then especially even more so in the second year, we were so short on staff, which is kind of the case for every camping ministry ever. But and so everybody's doing like three times the amount of work to make it just sort of function. And even if we weren't, it's just an exhausting thing to be at a hundred every day because you're the campers go home and rest, or are little kids and have boundless amounts of energy, and we're all high school or college students that are like so tired. Yeah. But I remember every night praying, and we would always pray in the beginning of like our morning meetings of just asking God to provide us with endurance and it provide us with energy. And he was so faithful to like we had so much, we were all tired, but like he did truly fill us up. And it was somewhere in the early years of being a mom when I was like, wait a minute. I used to do this and ask for endurance and ask for energy, and he did it every time. But why am I not being so specific to ask for that now? And it made a huge difference in my belief.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah. And I think I agree with even just like the there's something about this discourse around rest that makes us think so much about when we're not getting it. And I think that's not necessarily bad that we would have that kind of like flag. I'm not resting, I'm not resting. But I was thinking about how my advice to new parents, or like when they're about to have their first, is always like, you know, and this might just be me, and I say that too, but like cover the clocks. Like if you are up in the middle, if this, if the sun is down, don't look at a clock because there's nothing more discouraging and deflating than being like, I slept two hours. Like, I think everyone should be able to gaslight themselves into thinking they got six hours of sleep every night because it is so mental. Like it just, and there is, there's gonna come a point where you're like, I need to rest. I need to just like figure this out. But I think if it's based more on like actually staying in tune with your body instead of this like weird idea of like, this is how much rest I need to have and this is what it has to look like. Again, I'm sure there's a way that that could be distorted and it could be misused and someone could like not rest at all when they need to. That's just not my problem. My problem is very much more like if I know that I haven't slept, then all I'm gonna be thinking about is how tired I am and how little sleep I got. And for me, it's so much more helpful if I'm like, whoa, I just happen to have energy. That's great because God provides energy and God knows I need it to raise these little kids and have this baby and write this book. And if I just don't dwell on it so much, it's just better that way.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Right. You know? Well, and I think what you were like to your point, like a lot of it is like I think we tend to start to feel guilty if we're not resting because we're no we're supposed to rest. And then we think about like, well, like we start to equate rest with like doing nothing or sitting down. But I don't think that's the full expression of rest, but I get that. Totally. I love the idea of covering the clocks. That's so smart.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Well, and I'm like, again, this might not work for every personality type, but I just told a guy the other day, I was like, I'm telling you. It's I really do think it's as simple as like give yourself the chance to gaslight yourself.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Just give yourself a shot. Yeah. So that's my advice. That's really good.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Something you said earlier when you're talking about the ministry as a women of welcome, right? Uh-huh. Something I've seen you do so well, and and it kind of ties back to what you're talking about earlier, is you are very good. Let me just I think glaze is what the youth say.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

I was gonna say, I was like, the youth are saying glaze.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

And honestly, I like that. I'm here for it. Because it's supposed to be like a donut, because that's what I'm thinking of.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, that's how I feel. Like a donut.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

But you're very good at communicating really hard. You're in giggle giggles, and communicating really hard topics in a such a public space. Like you do a very good job at in such a brief period of time, like hitting the nuance that needs to be hit and speaking truth very much in love. And I've even seen you correct yourself in the past and you do that with such humility. And so, my sort of my question is not just to pump you up though, I hope that it does. Thank you. Is like, what does that process look like for you, I guess, internally and practically speaking? Because like so many of my listeners are either wanting to build a platform or need to out of like necessity for their job. But also like that gets really tricky of like, is it all always about me? And what do I speak out about and what do I not speak out about? Like, I sure you see where I'm going with this question because it's a big one, but do it that way.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah. Well, and I think it's it's just one of those things where sometimes I ask God, I'm like, why did you give me a brain like this? Like, the way that my brain works is so like I second guess everything, and I really feel like it takes me a long time to feel confident in my beliefs about things. And that has obviously been a problem for different stages of my life and has made things hard. And I think only recently in my life have I been like, you know what? There's actually something really beautiful to the fact that yes, I take a long time to be convinced of things in any direction. But it's also given me this almost like lawyer-like precision when it comes to understanding things and when it comes to then communicating what I think about them. Because I am always thinking about my friend who grew up a Christian and then deconstructed after an abuse scandal at her church. You know, always thinking about that person who I want to know the Lord again. And I'm also thinking about the camp girls that I counseled when I was younger who like have such a sweet and innocent faith and who like I don't want to introduce doubt that doesn't need to be there. Like, there's always just like a hundred people in my brain. And there's a lot of reasons that that is unhelpful sometimes. But also I feel like there's something that the Lord has just kind of helped me feel more confident about and more like, no, this is a unique type of voice that lots of people have. But the thing about having a brain that thinks about so many other voices and not even like their opinion, but more just like, I want to actually like reach them and help them and not make it harder on them.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

If I'm trying to speak that way, there are other people who also have brains like. That, but because of our wiring, it is so hard to know how to speak and how to speak confidently. And so with the Lord kind of like empowering me into these spaces of like, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be thoughtful. It's okay to vocalize. Like, I see this side and I also see this side. And here's kind of how I feel like the Lord has made those two things work in my brain. And this is where I feel like He's calling me to speak to this issue and this issue. Like in just being really honest and authentic about it, I think God has made me feel more confident that like that is a kind of voice that the world needs too.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

And it's a voice that, in my opinion, I'm thankful for because there are very few relationships that I feel have had to end because of my commitment to something that is not fundamental to the gospel. And I kind of think that maybe the more I do this, the more I'm like, oh, there's actually a lot of value in learning how to talk about stuff that isn't fundamental to the gospel in ways that allows us to stay connected to each other. So that was kind of a roundabout answer to your question. But I just feel like a lot of it is just leaning into the wiring that God has given us and trusting that there is room for that too, when the internet especially feels like you have to be a very specific type of confident and bold and brash in order to be faithful to whatever your thing is.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

It's wild that you say that because I I kid you not, this is something that God had just convicted me of like a couple of days ago. I'm not even it's just wild that you said it exactly so specifically.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Well, tell me more. I want you to explain it.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Buckle up because you've got a story incoming.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

So like I don't know, almost a year ago. When I I went to Kristen Lavalli's writing retreat last spring. Okay. And a little bit before that, but after I had already booked tickets to go, the timeline is important. Um, I got a message from a literary agent asking if I would want to write a book. And I was like, wait, really? Because yes, but in my mind, I was assuming 10, 15 years down the road. Like I really would love to be able to go to Bible college. I have like enrolled and been accepted to Multnomah and to Moody ages ago, but um both times God shut the doors or just made it very clear to me that like, no, no, no, you're rushing. This now isn't the time.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Is Multnomah a school?

SPEAKER_01 24:25

It was a Bible college. My husband graduated from there.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Oh my gosh. Funny, because they're also both publishers. So I was kind of like, Oh, really? Multnomah at Water Bookman, Multnomoma is a publisher and Moody.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Is it from is it in core is it in um Oregon?

SPEAKER_00 24:39

I actually have no clue at all because I am just now finding out if it's also a Bible college. But yeah, and I was kind of like, oh, that's crazy. But anyway, sorry, that was kind of a dumb interruption.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

The college now is very different than what it was then. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um and there's like a whole like Multnomah Falls are these beautiful waterfalls in Oregon. So it's like a whole region. But anyways, um, so I get this and I'm like talking to her about it because I have had an idea for ages that I've wanted to pursue, but I've never taken the time to like articulate it very well. Cause again, like I'm thinking, like, I really would love to go to Bible school first. I would like I had all these things in my mind that I needed to do first.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

And my kids are little and like, yeah. I had so many reasons that I feel like are valid concerns to be caused about it. So I email her back though, and I'm just kind of like, I'm just gonna keep taking steps forward and we'll see what happens. And then I meanwhile, I'm working really hard to try and build a better community and be take more initiative in building a community at my church. And I signed up for which I literally never do because I tend, I have feelings about most women's conferences, which is a separate monologue for day. And so I was like hesitant to sign up, but I heard them announce it and just kind of checked out and was like, I'm just gonna sign up for this because like I have to just stop being a baby and put my big girl pants on and like take some action if I want to be involved. And so I just kind of checked out from what the pastor was saying or the announcer was saying, and I like signed up on my phone. So I didn't even see the like theme or the name or the title or any information about it. I just like paid the fee and I showed up. And this was before I went to the writer's retreat. And I get to the conference, and the name of the conference is called like if I could tell you my story or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Like lined up.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Okay, okay, clocked. Yeah. So then like forward, I go to the writer's retreat, and it was so wonderful because I got to like learn so much about more about the publishing industry and talk to Kristen about it, and she just shared so much with me because I had shared this journey with her up to this point, right? Yeah. I get back home and my parents start getting divorced, and our life kind of falls apart. It's the second divorce, and so it was really hard, and whatever. I'm sorry. Thank you. Yeah, it's it's we're starting to pick up the pieces. I what I keep saying is is like we're no longer at the part where like we're gushing blood. We've got we've got bandages on. Things are starting to heal. Okay. So I'm grateful. But anyways, I emailed my publisher and was like, or my uh literary agent, not my publisher, but my literary agent and was like, hey, I I have zero capacity to pursue this right now. And I understand if like me having to delay this is gonna like disqualify for me from this opportunity, but like I I just can't give it the attention it deserves right now. Things are really hard at home. Like, is it okay if I come back when I'm ready? And she was like, Of course you can come back later. Like, of course. And so I um, you know, months and months pass by and things start to settle down, like kind of, you know, all of the crazy starts to subside, and we're starting to get back into a r regular rhythm. And I find myself like avoiding coming to scripture and avoiding spending time with Jesus. And I was like, what is going on? Like I really genuinely love it. Like it's not a friction point for me normally. Like, why am I having so much resistance to this? Um, and I was like just kind of praying about it in the car one day, and I realized that like a very Nineveh moment. I knew if I come to God, that He would be like, Okay, Dusty, you need to email her back now. Um, and sure enough, I repent and I like start coming back to the Lord and He leads me to this process. And then I keep thinking like through this whole journey, and she emailed me back right away. I was expecting weeks, like I was thinking, like, I'll take slow steps forward, but it's like starting to happen pretty fast. Well, which makes me glad that I postponed it because I couldn't have done it then. That was absolutely the wise decision.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

But through this process, it's got me thinking a lot about like I worked with so many authors over the years. Like I know the process that and I know how much work goes into selling a book. I know that I would be taking on the marketing responsibility. Like I I understand that very well. And so I keep thinking, like, but what if I like fail again? Or like what if it doesn't go how I want? Or, you know, all of those fears that I'm sure you know very well. And that convicted me of almost exactly what you said of like, Dusty, just do what you're really good at that I've made you really good at, and stop trying to like attach yourself to the trend. Stop trying to make all the carousels because you feel like you have to make a carousel or have to do this format, or just like show up as yourself and like it be fun. Just what I'm literally teaching my clients on a daily basis. It's very much like start following your own advice, Dusty. Totally. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

That's a no, that's I mean, I think that's just like cool. I think that's how God does stuff 100%.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yeah, and it's me. I feel very, very grateful because it would be and who's to say, maybe nothing comes of it, but I'm just gonna kind of keep taking faithful steps forward and see what happens and trust that even if it doesn't, that's something that God has taught me a lot through the years. It's like even if it doesn't come to the fullness of what I expect it to look like, doesn't mean I'm not being obedient in this season.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Yeah, well, and also stepping stones. I think that's one thing book publishing has really taught me is like want writing and publishing a book to be the end game, to be the like, I've arrived. And in my life, it has been a lot more of a stepping stone than a this is the whole story. And that's also a a gift. Like, you don't want your biggest, coolest thing in your whole life to be this. As much as you think you might, it's actually kind of like, no, you don't. You don't want this to be the best thing you have done or will do. So take that expectation off of it because even if you get it, that's kind of a bummer because we're like young. We don't want our whole thing to be done. But it's also like, what doors does this open? What path does this get you down? And letting it be that and just like releasing it at the same time. You know, like it's hard because that's not how they're gonna talk to you about publishing at all. It's very much like if we're gonna, I don't know, they make big promises and then sometimes they don't fulfill them, or they ask you to do a lot and act like it's gonna pay off a certain way and it might not. And I don't know. But so are you working on a book proposal?

SPEAKER_01 30:54

I am still in the like very beginning phases. So yes and no. Like because I know what's involved in book proposals, because I worked with so many clients and got them to like work with Kristen. I am on the back end, but I'm still very much in the like, is she gonna sign me on early, early stuff tests?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Okay, okay. Oh my gosh, exciting.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I am very excited. And stay tuned.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah. Yeah. What about the like okay? First, tell us about your book.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yes, she's here, always with an arms full.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

And mine as well with sticky notes.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Oh, yay. Those are cool sticky notes. I like that color.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Thank you. Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

I've never seen them like that. I love it. Um, yeah, so this book is the one that I actually wrote the proposal for in the first place, all the way back in like 2022. Um, and the topic is God's pursuit. So when I first proposed it, I thought it was gonna be like a devotional commentary on the book of Hosea. And I don't necessarily I think someone should write that because I think it's really Hosea's a pretty intense book of the Bible to like just dig into. Um, I think people need more of like an actual working knowledge of it. But the reason that Hosea matters to me is that Hosea is kind of the book of the Bible that the Lord used in my life to draw me out of, I guess, my own season of rebellion. Um, and I don't know if rebellion is even like the best word for it, but I grew up a lifelong Christian. Um, I really believe that that was authentic and real. The problem is growing up as a lifelong Christian who also is like a very achievement-oriented personality type, is that you say you understand what God has saved you from, and you say that you understand what it means to be like saved by Jesus. Yeah. But you actually haven't really oftentimes interacted with what you've been saved from. And so I think it's hard to have a really deep faith that ministers to other people when you don't understand sin fully. And that's not to say I think I was perfect. It's just to say like the stakes were low enough that I was able to like insulate myself from the impact of the sin that I had entertained in my life up to that point. When I got to college, I basically was just like disoriented by the fact that there were all of these new people around me and they all kind of were better at everything than me. Yeah. So, you know, I like I went to like a public high school and I was like, okay, well, I'm kind of like the Christian girl. Like I got a little identity from that. And then it was like, and I'm pretty good at school. So I got a little identity from that. And like I felt confident in certain settings, and you know, there were all these things that felt like they were my identity. And then I got to college and I was like, okay, so everybody here is really, really smart, and everywhere everyone here is like a better Christian than me because it was like a Christian college. I'm in like Southern California and everyone's really, really, really pretty because something about Southern California and all the people there are beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

It's very much a part of their culture, though, too. Like it's very embedded in that.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Which, like, yes, but then I also feel like it's just like the genes at this point are just like maybe slightly superior to other places because like it was just people who are like naturally stunning, you don't do it, and you're like, how did I find all of you? Like, oh my gosh. So anyway, I just like all these things that I'd found identity and just felt like they didn't mean anything or like they weren't making me special. And instead of just saying, like, Lord, I need to trust that you did make me special and unique, and there's something that you have planned for for me because you love me, I said, I'm gonna figure out how to forge my own identity here. And the thing that felt attainable was I'm gonna be the healthiest one. I'm gonna be the one who's working out the hardest. I'm gonna be the one who eats better than everyone else. Like there was just some form of like specialness that that imparted to me. And so I, at the beginning stages, chose it. I chose to, even though I kind of knew there was something unhealthy about it, go to the gym at 11 p.m. and like run on a treadmill for 60 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Well, it makes sense. There, every piece of that you can have control over.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yeah. Uh-huh. And that's exactly what it was. I think often it's like, you know, people who experience that, it's because they're coming out of some trauma that makes them feel out of control. And for me, it was really more just like, I want to control how people perceive me. And I want to have full, full control over making sure that they think I'm great for this category that I think I can be the best at. Um, and so at the beginning it was choices, but then you realize, and this is how I think all sin operates, is that like at the beginning, you're making things that like you're making little choices and you think you're making small concessions. And then at some point, much earlier in the process than you ever anticipated, you actually realize you are completely not in the driver's seat. And there's like a darkness that has its claws in you and you're no longer controlling it. And that's exactly what happened with my eating disorder was I made choices, but they were also exploiting things in my own brain that were broken. And parts of, you know, maybe my body and how I see myself. Maybe it's parts of my beliefs, maybe it's something that is kind of in my DNA and my wiring. But all of a sudden I was like, oh, I'm not in control of this at all. I cannot stop. I am losing friendships, I am compromising opportunities, I am being completely locked in by this desire to be thin and in control, and I cannot control it, ironically. So after a couple of years of contending with that and really like hurting a lot of people in my life, I mean, you realize too, when you open the door to that little bit of darkness, that darkness doesn't stay in the category that you set aside for it. So it wasn't just like, and now I have a bad eating disorder, but everything else is going great. Like, no, it started compromising relationships. It started making me make other really insane and terrible choices. It was just all of these things feeding each other, not feeding each other, actually. And then when it finally got to sort of rock bottom, I was in Turkey on a mission trip that I had signed up for because I thought it would like look good on a resume. And I was unable to sleep because of jet lag. And I felt like the Lord just like kind of hit me over the head in the nicest, most gracious way with drawing me to the book of Hosea, which is a book about how God asks this prophet to marry an unfaithful wife who he knew was not going to honor their marriage covenant, and then how God kind of subsequently asks Hosea to continue chasing after her, continue rescuing her, continue seeking her restoration, even though she continues to hurt him and do flee from their marriage. So it's a hard thing to make sense of on that theological level. I think that's really worth digging into. But the thing for me that really struck me was that God had not given up on me. And that no matter how much I had squandered about giftings that he'd given me, or a life of growing up in a Christian home and all of these other opportunities and gifts, um, no matter how much I felt like I was unworthy of his interest and care, he was still committed to winning me back to himself. And so Hosea just really formed, I would say, the latter half of my testimony, coming to understand like who God really is and how he cares about us. And I think once I really understood his pursuit, it made me realize how few Christians I think are actually living from that place of knowing that God is doing all of the running and all of the heavy lifting. And God has will not give up on us or or anyone else or the people who remain lost right now. And that really, I think, changed my understanding of God and let me live from a place of real like rest and peace. But it also has changed how I see our relationship as Christians to the world around us. And it's not supposed to be that we like shut people out and silo off in our own little world. It's that we partner with God in his pursuit of people who don't know how deeply he loves them and how committed he is to pursuing them no matter what. And so, yeah, that's kind of what this book is about. It's telling that story in my life. It's inviting people to see the theological background, the personal application, and then what that looks like out in the world once you really understand it. And that's kind of how it's designed.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

I love it. You just the I love the way you like defined pursuit. I'm reading from your book. It says pursuit as God intended and modeled is love moved to its feet. And I really love the way that you phrase that. Like I think that that's such a great way to like sum it up. And you also speak later, and I can't remember because I was reading it on an airplane and I lost my pen halfway through. So I was like, how am I gonna take all these notes? But um, you said something about like, and maybe you'll remember, I'm sure you'll, but how God you like a lot of people refer to God as a gentleman, and you had a different way to describe him.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yeah. So I I don't know. I think I just like I've heard I heard someone say that forever ago, and I've heard it a few times since. Like, God is a gentleman. And the idea is God's not going to force you to believe in him, I think is often kind of what people are getting at, or God's not gonna like force you into some story you don't want to be a part of. And I think there's truth to that. Like it does say in that part of Revelation, right? Like I stand at the door and knock. God's not barging into the house, forcing you to acknowledge him, you know? Right. But the problem with that is that I also feel like it sort of implies that like he's gonna walk away or give up, you know? Like, yeah, okay, like gentlemen in our, you know, if a if a young man is a gentleman and he asks you on a date and you say no, he might ask a few more times, but then he's gonna move on. Like he's gonna grow tired of whatever this nonsense is, or he's going to respect the boundaries that you put into place. And I think the boundaries conversation is worth having here too. Like our boundaries that we put for other people may or may not be healthy and good. I think boundaries, like in most in in ideal situations, are very healthy and important and we should have them. But our idea of boundaries don't necessarily bind God. Just because you say, like, God, I don't want you to touch this particular area of my life, or like, God, I don't want you to touch my finances. That doesn't mean God's gonna be like, okay, well, since you said so, like, yeah, that's not how God works. And so I just think the expression, like, while it kind of hits on something true about God, which is that God wants your participation, your participation and your yes, it doesn't really fully describe the nature of a God who is huge and wildly in love with you. Like, God will will continue knocking and continue knocking and continue knocking, and he will be at that door for the rest of your life, waiting for you to let him in so that you can live the life of power and abundance that he wanted for you, because that's what it looks like to live a life of glorifying God with every breath in your lungs. Like, so I just think it's incomplete and for that reason imprecise. And that's why I had to be annoying about it and say, no, it's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah, I love that. And and I agree with you because I do think the intention of what when it's communicated to say that God is gentlemanly, that he's not forceful in that way. Yeah. Otherwise, Adam and Eve would have never left the garden. Right. Like they would have never had to have deal with the consequences. Which is I think what they're alluding to when they say God's a gentleman. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

But also He's persistent.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah. And I think it's just acknowledging that he does not falter in his commitment the way that a gentleman would.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Making sure we are, and this is a problem that Christians have across the board. We like lean way too heavily on analogy, and then we expect the whole the analogy to like fully capture God. And it's like, well, it it again, it hits on something true, but there are limits to the way that you're using this to understand a huge and powerful God. Like, so making sure we're we're clear on that is important to me. And that's kind of what I dig into.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing that I like that you talked about was that God didn't create you for your glory, but for his. And I would love it if you can kind of share a little bit more about what you mean by that. And a little bit of backstory is I most of my family are not believers. My parents had me when they were in high school, 16. I think my mom delivered me when she was 17. Wow. And we're not believers. And through that process, my parents ended up having another, got married while they were pregnant with me, and then got divorced, and then had got remarried and you know, timeline went on. But through the divorce process, the first divorce, my dad like didn't know Christ and was so adamantly against Christianity as a concept that like he got prayer kicked out of his school. Like it wasn't just like it's annoying. It was like very adamantly against it. Yes, yeah. And my I have some uncles on his side of the family who were believers. And they invited my dad and my brother and I to come to church. And my dad was like, I'm not. Going to go, but also I need help with childcare, and I'm not even 20, and I have two kids and a divorce, so like, sure, you can take them. Like, I need help. And so we started going to Sunday school. And I remember coming home feeling like one, that was the happiest place I'd ever been in my entire life. Like everybody was there to care for me and played with me and loved on me. I heard nobody yelling or fighting. Like it was like such a joyful place. I really believe that the moment I walked in those doors, like God met me there and blessed me with a childlike face that I am not capable of on my own. Wow. And I would come home and tell my dad and be like, all of the stories that I was hearing, like Jonah and all the, you know, common Bible stories. And my dad was getting really, really mad. Not at me, but like at this church for feeding me lies. Is what he and I remember him saying, like, you can just go and you don't have to listen. And I was like, I feel like that's a weird way to parent a small child. I was probably like five or five or six. I was really little, and I remember being like, but I want to listen. I'm confused. But growing up, then he became he went to disprove everything they were teaching me. And through that, in God's graciousness, he saved him. Like my dad now loves the Lord and went on to like do a lot of really cool stuff. But then I was able to grow up in a Christian home from that point on. But it's very first generation Christian, right? And so I kind of feel like blessed in a way that I I kind of have experienced both. Like I really did grow up in a Christian home because I was very young when my dad came to know the Lord. I was really young when I came to know the Lord. And something that I've always struggled with, especially, is this idea of like until recently, of this idea of God's glory. And like what you said is 100% true. Like God didn't create me for my own glory, but for God's. And my question is, is and something that I wrestled with up until very recently is like, doesn't that feel really selfish of God? Like, is he really the bee's knees and he doesn't care about you know what I mean? It starts to feel very like self-important, which seems opposite of who God is, but also, you know what I mean? There's a lot of nuance there. So I guess I would just love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah, I think there's a couple layers to it. And I think the first one is just like, as a Christian, and also just as someone who's like, if God is real and God is infinite and God is creative in everything, then at a certain point it should just be okay with me that he is deserving of all glory. I should, I should be able to be okay with that. And I acknowledge that there's something uncomfortable about that in our culture. And I think that's ironic because it's so like everything else about our culture is encouraging us to seek our own glory. And so the fact that we're uncomfortable with an all-powerful God deserving all glory is really telling to me.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

I'm like, well, Anna is a holy God who's like never done a negative thing in his life.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Yeah. It's like, why is it something that makes me bristle? And it doesn't make me feel that type that same type of bristling. I mean, now it does, and I think that's because of the Holy Spirit kind of transforming our thinking. But for so many of us, it doesn't feel weird when it's like, you know, everyone's telling us to pursue our dream and be our best and we're amazing. Like there's something I think worth kind of sitting with about that.

unknown 47:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

So some of it is just like because I assent to this idea that there is an all-powerful, holy God, I just like agree that he should get glory, even if I kind of have to like let my emotions catch up to that sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

But the second part is that God didn't have to tie our good to his glory, and yet he did. So when we are glorifying God and when we are most aligned with his purposes for us and for his plans, we are living in the greatest degree of abundance and joy. And that is something that an all-powerful God did not have to tie together.

unknown 48:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

But he has chosen to tie his glory to us as his image bearers. And that is actually a gracious and beautiful thing that should elicit our worship and therefore our glorification of him further. So I think that there's a lot of theology kind of underneath that, but also just acknowledging, like, even I talk about this in the first part of the book, because the first part is meant to, again, kind of provide that theological underpinning so that we make sure we're not just like talking about nice ideas, that they're really rooted in the scriptural arc from start to finish. I mean, if you compare even like creation stories from the ancient Near East, um, like the Enuma Leash is well known, but they're these stories of basically the polytheistic worldviews where there's all these gods, and all of those creation accounts are extremely violent. And the reason that humans are created is basically to our outsource labor. Like we're tired of working. We want, we want these little peons who can like do all the stuff we don't want to do. And in the creation account that we see in the Bible, it's God in perfect communion as the Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit. And it essentially overflows into I just want them here. I just want I want people. I want these companions in the garden. I want to be able to be with them and be close to them. And so God creates out of his good pleasure, but he puts his image on us. And I think the thing that is kind of interesting, and that I, again, for people who are maybe more theologically inclined, this will really hit. But the reason that God pursues us is because we bear his image. And so there's kind of again that tension of like, it's not about us. It's not because we are so, so great that God absolutely has to have us because he is somehow in need. No, it's because he chose to put his image on us. And God, by nature, you know, the father, son, and spirit, they're drawing together in this perfect community. And so when we wander away, God says, no, no, no, you're supposed to be right here. That image is supposed to be right here, close together. We're supposed to be in this perfect community. And that drives the spirit of God to continue chasing after us, to draw us back. And that can't be any other way. And that's not because he's weak, but that is because he made the choice as God to tie his image to who we are as well, which means that our glory is his glory. And when we are living in such a way that we are aligned with his plans and purposes, like I said before, it is the most glorifying to him on earth, which again is kindness. It didn't have to be that way, but that is how he set it up. And that is, again, just another thing that makes him worthy of our glory and our love.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

I think that's so well said. When as like it's really been the last few years that I've even questioned that piece of being like, wait, isn't that kind of selfish? I was like, I have so many questions. And in the last year or so, I feel like God's provided me so much clarity on that as I've been asking questions of being like, I have taken this at face value, and happily so, that you are worthy of all the glory and all the land. But now I'm starting to get curious about like, wait, why?

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

And I was, we have this beautiful mountain, Mount Rainier. We can see it from most places. And but well, not really, because it's cloudy and rainy and sad. Yeah. Seasonal depression has come among us all at the Pacific Northwest. Um, but it was on a day that was particularly beautiful, and you can see the mountain. And I was standing out, I can't remember exactly even where now, but somebody that I didn't know said, wow, that's so glorious. And it like clicked when I was like, Oh, God's glory is for our good. Like it is a reflection of God's glory that this mountain is so majestic and beautiful and vast and big. But also I'm standing here being very, very blessed by looking at this big, beautiful, stunning mountain. And it like clicked in my head when I was like, oh yeah. That's so nice of you. Like that's a statement.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

But well, and it's I think it is just kind of it's a it is a again, it's a theological question of like, if he is God, then he is glory. He is deserving of all glory. He just, it's absolute power. Yep. And because of that, it's like there's no other way. Like he just simply is deserving, and you just kind of have to like get your head around that little piece. And that is hard because it does kind of I understand that it rubs up, I mean, I feel that too. I think, like I said, what what just kind of helps me and to what exactly what you're saying is just also like, but he very intentionally made it so that we could thrive in proximity to that glory. And that is so different from how you see humans setting up kingdoms in all of history. It's so different from our knee-jerk reaction when we are given that little taste of glory for ourselves. And it's so different than these other, like, if you compare world religions, like I said before, it's just not how a human would write the story. So you kind of on one hand are like, okay, I just have to say yes because that's what faith means. And that's what believing in God, if you really understand what God is, you just have to say, like, okay, yeah. But then you were very quickly reminded that he did it in about the most gracious and loving and generous way that he possibly could. Um, and so I think giving him acknowledgement for that too makes it a little easier to be like, of course you're worthy of all the glory. And thank you so much for allowing me to experience the warmth of that by being near the sun. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Yeah. Yeah. Which is why, and I and I say all that to say, I thought this through. I say all that to say, like, which is why I love the title of your book. It's Called Back to Who You Are. I'm not sure if we actually said it on the podcast yet, but Called Back to Who You Are. I'll put a link to it for everybody in the show notes so you can grab it. But it's cool to see how God's glory does do exactly that. Like in this his pursuit of us, it does exactly that. It calls us back to who God created us to be as image bearers, as his children. Um and I'm just so enjoying reading. I have like a few chapters left and I'm loving everywhere to do that.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

As we sort of wrap up, a question I like to ask everybody that comes on the show is like if you were and take liberties to go wherever you want with this, but is if you were to describe like the work that you do, like compare it to like a cup of coffee or anything you would order at a cafe. Because sometimes coffee menus really make people stressed out.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

But like what would it be and why? What I do in a coffee or other. Like if you were to go to a cafe. So teas are allowed or monitored. Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

That's such an interesting question. And there's so many different things I feel like I want to capture. Okay. I want to say it's like something weird. It's like a boba tea. That's not weird. It's just like maybe not conventional. Yes. I think that's because God has kind of led me down a path that, like, oh, I didn't know I could get this year. Like, I just was at a coffee shop and I was like, you guys have boba. That's wild. That's how I feel about my life right now, is that it was like, I didn't know I could be a mom of three little kids, and also like writing a book, which is definitely like a bucket list item that I wouldn't have seen on my bingo card for quite some time. And also we're like launching a church. Like it's just like God continues to reveal unexpected things at every kind of turn of this career, and also put things and tasks on my plate that I have no idea how I get done. Like we talked about that at the beginning. Yeah. I'm like, I actually don't know. I have like major amnesia about like, how did I possibly get all of that done with three little kids in my house? But it's like, it's all just about embracing, I think, the lack of expectation. Like, I just have I could not have planned it like this for myself. But also just being like up for whatever. I think that's kind of the name of the game when you're following God and his plan for your life is like weird. That's what we're doing today. Okay, I have no idea how this is gonna play into the future. And then God like weaves together a story. So that is less about the nature of my work itself, and I guess more so about how I feel like it looks to let God direct your vocational choices. And it's very much boba in a coffee shop you didn't know served boba.

SPEAKER_03 56:29

Yes, I love that. That's so perfect. That's so perfect. We wove it together there at the end. Like a true author.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Okay, and then last question What is something that's making you really, really happy right now?

SPEAKER_00 56:47

So I think it is having an eight-month-old baby because I am trying really hard to not let the things that feel stressful about the season make this season not joyful. And I think kids are such a good reminder of that because yes, we're in a culture, and I actually feel like I could probably write an entire book about this. I agree that we should validate the hard things about mother and about having little kids. And I can whine more than your average person about child care expenses and how our society makes it impossible for moms. I could do that all day long. And yet, if I allowed myself to do that all day, I would miss so much that is amazing and fleeting about having three little kids. And so you hear people a lot. I'm sure you're familiar with like the discourse around like the old lady who comes up to you in Costco and she's like, Oh, you're gonna miss these days. I hope you're enjoying it, kind of thing. And people are kind of bucking against that. Like, don't tell me what to do. It's hard, kind of thing. And again, I validate, I hear, I know. But also, that old lady is still correct, unfortunately. Like, that doesn't make her wrong. She can maybe have some emotional intelligence, like not yelling that at a mom who's about to start crying in the produce section. Fair enough. Emotional intelligence, a good thing, but she's still correct. And I've been trying to just like really hold that of like, I do not want to lose the ability to feel stress and joy at the same time, because that's just life. And right now, my eight-month-old is not sleeping at all, and he is like such a hard, you know what I mean? Yeah, like the sleep regression's taking us out. But he's eight months old and his personality is like perfect, and he can't crawl yet, but he can sit up and he just sits there like this, just smiling at the room. Like it's delightful. And so I think just even just like a metaphor for trying to live in like a broken world that's really struggling right now, and it feels like more than ever, even though it's not, feels like it's struggling more than ever. Also acknowledging that like there are beautiful and fleeting things about every single day. And so that was so much more of an answer than you asked for. But I think just like looking at my eight-month-old, who is on one hand extremely stressful, and on the other hand, like absolutely perfect and delightful, is kind of just like bringing everything into perspective for me.

SPEAKER_01 59:06

Yeah. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. I was just reading like um the storybook Bible with my son last night. He's four, and we were talking about like the story was about like the when they're wandering in the desert and like they're grumbling and complaining and upset. And I remember thinking, like, I complain as soon as the temperature gets above 75 degrees. Yeah. Like I am the first to be like, it is sweaty in here and I don't want to like it. And I like, I feel like on paper they had every reason to complain. Like it sounds miserable and horrible and awful. I have to be honest. Like, none of that sounds ideal. And I I was thinking as I was reading it, I was like, dang, if that happened in 2026, how much we would really it's again that pendulum swing of like, I want to validate that this is hard, but and yeah, yeah, stay in a place of victimhood and grumbling because we've been rescued from that.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

Yeah. And you have to be able to like walk forward despite, like, I don't know, it's not even self-validation. There's a little bit of self-validation, like I don't need it. I can say, oh my gosh, this is really hard. I got the flu this week and I wish I didn't, and that was awful. And I could ask for validation from my close people and they'll give it. Um, but also like you still have to be able to like walk forward in the desert, or you're not gonna get to the place that God is trying to get you to go. You're also gonna miss the fact that God was doing like crazy miracles every single day for them. Like, yeah. I don't know. I just feel like we miss stuff when we commit too much to any side of like a binary. I that was probably a bigger statement than I meant to make because that doesn't apply to everything. But when it comes to just like life experience, but like necessary. Yeah, yeah, like you have to be able to like you have two hands for a reason. You can hold two things. And I think we just don't do enough of that in our culture of like hard, so beautiful. And there will come a day, and that's what God promises, that eventually we just get to hold the beautiful. But right now, we're in a fallen world, so we have to be able to like do two things. And I think again, that's why God gave us two hands, and people just really don't like they don't like having to figure out how to do two things.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

So, but also we have to.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

And I wouldn't even argue too, like we get to. Like it is really such a big honor that God would He doesn't really it kind of comes back to everything you were saying earlier. Like He doesn't really need us to accomplish all of this stuff. Like, it's like a great honor that we get to.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

Yeah, yep. And he doesn't have to make the hard things beautiful, but he does. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

You get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

I get it. Thank you for chatting with me. This is such a wonderful conversation. It really helps me and I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Thanks, Dusty. Thanks for having me. This was really fun. And yeah, I just could talk about this stuff all day, as you can probably tell. So thanks for giving me a forum.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

My pleasure, my pleasure. Before I stop recording, though, tell the people how they can like follow you and find you and all the things.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

Yes. Okay, so I'm mostly on Instagram at Whitney PearsonLowe. I'm dabbling in TikTok. I don't know. We'll see how I feel about that. Yeah, it's really dabbling. Um, and then my book is available wherever books are sold. It's called Called Back to Who You Are Finding Yourself in the Wild Pursuing Love of God. It is pretty. They did a good job with the cover.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Do your nails match? I think I saw them.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

So cute. I love that so much. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

I probably need to get them changed pretty soon, but I like don't know if I can part with them. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

What a fun way to celebrate. I'm I am working a lot with clients and trying to help them to find like creative ways to celebrate a launch because I really want us to like work harder to celebrate the effort and the work we've put in and not just the outcome. The outcome's also worth celebrating, but we gotta celebrate even when we don't get the outcome we want. And I think that's such a fun little way to like add some celebration. I think that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

I stole it from someone, but I also think it's like the most fun little, it feels a little indulgent, but it's like you can take an hour and a half of your life. Like, yeah. 10 out of 10. So pass that one along for sure. I just don't deserve credit for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:04

I saw somebody, I've seen other people, I guess. I don't know who was the origin of this, but do the same with um cookies. How like cookies?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

Little book lunch moment for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:13

All right, thanks.